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Technology lost

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Technology lost

Post  Tzieth on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:07 pm

Is it such a far-fetched idea that the Sumerians had Nukes and built space-craft as Sitchin claimed they did?

There was so much that we lost even before the Dark Ages. When the Library of Alexandria was burned down in Egypt by a rogue Christian faction, we lost a lot more than we knew. To this day, we still do not know exactly what Greek Fire was. Only that it was a liquid that was sprayed and even continued to burn under water.

The Ancient Greeks had Robots (Yes I said Robots.). But what about the people before them? The Great Pyramids have two distinct solutions depending on who you ask. Either they were put together using primitive methods that defy logic, or Aliens built them (That also defies logic.) How many times has Technology peaked and fell?



Last edited by Tzieth on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Blondie1 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:16 pm

Sooooo much has been lost it's unbelievable. I also think a lot is hidden by the powers that be, greedy greedy powermongers!
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:20 pm

I agree that a lot of information about ancient technologies has been lost. It is however important to appreciate that 'lost' doesn't necessarily equal 'advanced'.

If you look at the techniques employed by Wally Wallington to move huge blocks of stone, you can appreciate how megaliths or the pyramids could be built without pulleys or advanced machinery.

When it comes to advanced technology, such as nuclear weaponry, it cannot exist in isolation. There needs to be a lot of supporting industry and technology and we should find evidence for this industry in the archaeological record. Since we don't find such evidence it is my opinion that ancient tales about laser weapons, vimana and nuclear wars are most likely examples of early science fiction.

I can't rule out the possibility that the ancients had equivalents to modern technology, but without archaeological evidence things like ancient nuclear weapons seem highly unlikely. I suppose that the theory behind nuclear fission could have been worked out, but there would have been no way to make use of this knowledge. I'm reminded of ancient steam engines that were nothing more than curiosities or toys as all the other technology and know-how required to use them as power sources were not in place.

In short, yes there are lost technologies and our ancestors were likely more advanced than most people appreciate. There are however limits and some of the speculated possibilities are so unlikely as to be practically impossible.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Blondie1 on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:37 pm


There is a theory somewhere that perhaps there was a nuclear weapon used on earth before and they are just now finding evidence. Something about soil findings somewhere. I read and listen to so much about it that I cannot remember where I find stuff. I suppose the radiation could have come from a meterorite. I've been reading everything I could find about Gobekli tepe lately that could be where I saw it. Not sure.

You know Wood I've read what Wally did but I just cannot wrap my mind around it. I understand what his findings support but I just can't accept it for all the amazing structures and the one's they're discovering even now.

I'm wondering about sound frequencies. A lot is being discovered about the power of sound.

all of the above is my opinion only


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Re: Technology lost

Post  Tzieth on Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:42 pm

No hard evidence, but how long ago are we talking here and what material were they using? Aside from Sitchin's account, there are the Indian Gods stories that sound like Nuclear war. (But maybe Sitchin was trying to match things.)

It seems the higher technology gets, the least likely things will last. I noticed this when I needed a part for my car and went into a Junk yard. I needed a part for a 96 Lumina, and there was hardly anything from the 90's in that junkyard. But all kinds of cars from the 70's almost fully intact. Cars were not as advanced but were better built. Now everything is plastic when back then everything was metal. I am not sure one has to do with the other, but it seems higher technology depends on quantity instead of quality.

I watched a documentary on how they think the Egyptians moved the blocks. But the Doc failed to mention what the Alien Doc stated lol. Those blocks came from elsewhere and they did not feel that Egyptian reed boats could carry them. The part i do not understand and the part neither spoke of was getting one block on top of another when they were at least four blocks high. The higher up they went, the more narrow it became. If it was an earthen ramp, then where did the dirt go afterwards? Then you take into account that they later coated the pyramids with Polished Limestone and all of this was done in 30 years?
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:59 am

Blondie1 wrote:There is a theory somewhere that perhaps there was a nuclear weapon used on earth before and they are just now finding evidence........I suppose the radiation could have come from a meterorite.

Yes, I know what you are talking about and various sites are mentioned by the likes of Daniken. But as you say there are often alternative explanations that are more plausible.

I recall that the radiation at one site was perfectly normal and a product of mineral deposits in rocks and minerals found naturally at the location. Another claim turned out to originate from an amateur who wasn't using their geiger counter properly and the radiation was no different to normal background radiation.

Another problem is that as far as I am aware there is no fused quartz at any of the sites associated with supposedly anomalous radiation. There would also be some kind of natural record of a nuclear winter if there had been an all ancient nuclear war.

Blondie1 wrote:I understand what his findings support but I just can't accept it for all the amazing structures and the one's they're discovering even now.

Obviously these structures are impressive and I can understand where you are coming from. However in the case of Egyptian pyramids we do have historical evidence that depicts construction techniques and we have access to builders camps that can inform estimates about workforce numbers and injuries sustained from heavy lifting etc. We even know how much bread and beer they would have consumed.

In addition we know that these monuments didn't spring from nowhere and can see the evolution in bulding techniques from simple mud mounds, through to earth and brick mastabas, which then grew in scale to become brick pyramids and then eventually stone. I don't know as much about ancient civilisation in the Americas, but I seem to recall there is similar evidence of incrimental developments in building techniques.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:49 am

Tzieth wrote:It seems the higher technology gets, the least likely things will last. I noticed this when I needed a part for my car and went into a Junk yard. I needed a part for a 96 Lumina, and there was hardly anything from the 90's in that junkyard. But all kinds of cars from the 70's almost fully intact. Cars were not as advanced but were better built. Now everything is plastic when back then everything was metal. I am not sure one has to do with the other, but it seems higher technology depends on quantity instead of quality.

I think that it's more a case that a lot of modern technology becomes obsolete before it breaks down, so it does not have to be built to last. The culture of repairing goods and using them until destruction has mostly disappeared.

You have made a valid point though and even if ancient technology wasn't as disposable as you suggest then much of it would be recycled. There would still be items that would survive for thousands of years and could not be reused - don't forget that a lot of ancient archaeological artifacts are essentially archaic refuse.

Instead of discovering the odd unexpected piece of technology - such as the Antikythera mechanism - we should be finding an abundance items from a wide range of supporting technology remnants from industries needed for nuclear power and weaponry to exist.

We also need to question why these ancient civilisations didn't leave a better record of their achievements. Where are the stone freezes showing power stations and factories etc? Obviously there are the ancient myths that fuel speculation, but is there good reason to think that these accounts are anything more than myth? If someone picks up a copy of H. G. Wells' 'The Time Machine' in a thousand years, would be they be justified in thinking that time travel existed in the 19th century?

Those blocks came from elsewhere and they did not feel that Egyptian reed boats could carry them.........If it was an earthen ramp, then where did the dirt go afterwards? Then you take into account that they later coated the pyramids with Polished Limestone and all of this was done in 30 years?

Recent exploration of the Giza plateau has shown that the area around the pyramids was a huge quarry and that the bulk of the stone was sourced on site. After construction the excavations were then filled in with material from the ramps - parts of them remain to this day. As I mentioned above we also have carvings showing construction techniques, which includes moving stones on wooden sledges and transporting stone by boat (it's likely only the lightweight limestone casing stone was shipped in and transported via the Nile).

In my opinion if the pyramids were not built using the techniques described by the ancient Egyptians and evidenced by the worker camps and remains, as well as the local quarry and ramp remnants, then we have to ask ourselves why the Egyptians would lie about how they built the pyramids and even go as far as to fabricate evidence to support these lies?

Even when you have seen the evidence described above and appreciate that manpower calculations are consistent with these monuments being built over a relatively short time, I can fully appreciate how it is still hard to accept that there wasn't some lost advanced technology at work. I think this is partly down to arrogance; we tend to see technology as evolving in a linear fashion and believe our current achievements represent the pinnacle of human achievement. So when we come across something like the pyramids that would be almost impossible to build today, it seems common sense to conclude that it should have also been impossible for supposedly primitive people using basic equipment and raw manpower.

However, we only have to go back a few hundred years to see that without the luxury of modern machinery craftsmen had an understanding of materials and construction that puts their contemporary counterparts to shame. So, whilst we may have made great advancements in some fields that would look like magic to ancient eyes, we are hopelessly unskilled when it comes to technology that was valuable to ancient cultures.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  CMcMillan on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:11 am

In my opinion if the pyramids were not built using the techniques described by the ancient Egyptians and evidenced by the worker camps and remains, as well as the local quarry and ramp remnants, then we have to ask ourselves why the Egyptians would lie about how they built the pyramids and even go as far as to fabricate evidence to support these lies?

Question:
Don't we write fiction now?
Why couldn't our ancient civilizations have created Fiction as well?
How would we know what is non-Fiction and what is Fiction
I think you said it in an earlier post. would someone pick up a tom clancy book in our far future and see it as real?
Or even take something like the Blair Witch Movie. Would some one see that as an actually telling of something that happened?
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:55 am

CMcMillan,

I agree and since the more fantastical claims about ancient technology are drawn from mythological texts then the chances are that tales of ancient nuclear warfare are entirely fictional.

With regard to the building of the great pyramids we are dealing with public records celebrating pharaonic achievements and not religious or mythological writings. Whilst we have to be cautious about this information - the ancient Egyptian state wasn't averse to bending the truth and putting their own spin on things - much of the information is backed up by corroborating archaeological evidence.

We know where the workers lived, what they ate, what building crews they belonged to, how they were treated for injuries associated with moving large stones. We can visit the quarries they used and see evidence for how the stones were hewn from the ground and tooled. All this would have to have been fabricated if the depicted construction illustrations were a work of fiction.

By contrast we have no evidence (either in the form of physical archaeology or contemporaneous literature) that the pyramids were built using advanced or unconventional means.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  CMcMillan on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:52 pm

With regard to the building of the great pyramids we are dealing with public records celebrating pharaonic achievements and not religious or mythological writings. Whilst we have to be cautious about this information - the ancient Egyptian state wasn't averse to bending the truth and putting their own spin on things - much of the information is backed up by corroborating archaeological evidence.

How would you know the difference.
Since the Mythology of the time was also the science and History of the time.
a set of stories, traditions, or beliefs associated with a particular group or the history of an event, arising naturally or deliberately fostered: the Fascist mythology of the interwar years.
You seem to take the Modern Term for Mythology as being UNTRUE or Faith. When you look at some of the stories of our own History in our Historical Educational Materials (History Books) you will find that some of the writing is very Mythological. Its like the Bible it is a collection of Stories which were used to TEACH reality for others.
Allegory: a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.
We still to this day Teach True things in Allegory ways. We teach children morals via tales told. Or even History.

Just as you say that we have seen pictographs showing how things were made in ancient Egypt. We also know that some of the things that were made couldn't be done by the tools that we assume they had.

Ancient Aliens makes you think about the way things are made and why. It doesn't always have to be ALIEN origins but we are obviously missing many KEY bits of information on some of the things.
Example In a Mayan temple site. Their is a tunnel connecting one temple to the other with HEAT resistant material in it. it was purposely placed in this tunnel and the material was i think 100 of miles away.
This is the same material we use on Space Shuttles. So why would the ancient Mayans need this material in a tunnel?

So many unexplained Items that we are trying to piece together with very little knowledge


Edit:
Also it would be noted that Tarot Cards were used by Monks to teach the Bible to people. Since most pagan religions did not have or believe in the Devil.
But people now see them as some form of mystical divination cards.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:27 pm

CMcMillan wrote:How would you know the difference.
Since the Mythology of the time was also the science and History of the time.

That's why you cannot rely on writings and illustrations alone. You must consider their context and other evidence.

If hieropglyphic accounts state that they represent how something was built and that account can be corroborated by other archaeological evidence then the chances are that it is exactly what it claims to be and not a work of fiction......even if some details are missing or not entirely accurate.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  CMcMillan on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:43 pm

Woodwose wrote:
CMcMillan wrote:How would you know the difference.
Since the Mythology of the time was also the science and History of the time.

That's why you cannot rely on writings and illustrations alone. You must consider their context and other evidence.

If hieropglyphic accounts state that they represent how something was built and that account can be corroborated by other archaeological evidence then the chances are that it is exactly what it claims to be and not a work of fiction......even if some details are missing or not entirely accurate.


But archaeological Evidence can be incorrectly Identified no?

Again let me point out The Planet of the Apes movie.
At the site at the edge of an ocean, the party find Dr Zaius and a band of gorillas have pursued them. Holding off the pursuers by aiming a gun at Zaius, Taylor invites the ape to come and look at Cornelius findings in a Cliffside cave. The escapees head into a cave, with Zaius, a cave that Cornelius says contains proof that the apes’ sacred scrolls are not worth the paper they are written on.
Taylor examines Cornelius findings, which seem to point to an ancient human culture that predates that of the apes, a human culture that was very much like the one Taylor came from. Zaius dismisses Taylor’s analysis of the artefacts while Nova plays with a dirt encrusted human doll. Turning the doll over, Nova is alarmed when the doll issues the cry of “Mama” from the ancient mechanism inside it. The apes are shocked. Taylor confronts Zaius with the question: “Dr, would an ape make a human doll that talks?”.

Cornelius and Zira untie Dr Zaius, while he orders the cave to be sealed and the chimps to be detained. The secrets of the cave must never be revealed or all of ape society will come undone. The gorillas make to pursue Taylor and Nova but Zaius calls them back. Zira asks the doctor what will Taylor find? “His destiny” he replies.

This whole scene was a good example how "Leading scientists" can trump the "fringe scientists" That the well known and accepted Science is not to be questioned.
It is a great allegory of what is going on now in Science research.

We are digging into our past we can not be positive what we piece together is accurate.
That is the problem. We take our best educated guess and then we assume that is the Rule of Law in that subject.

And will be the problem as we move farther and farther away.
When we have drawings on caves and we can only assume what they represent.
Will someone pick up a comic book of Iron Man and then see pieces of "Tank Armor laying around and build from that the Iron man suit and say LOOK it was real"
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:22 pm

CMcMillan wrote:But archaeological Evidence can be incorrectly Identified no?

Correct. However when you have lots of different evidence pointing to the same conclusion it is pretty safe to say that a mistake has not been made. Of course there is always the possibility that new evidence will come to light that necessitates a rethink on the matter.

This whole scene was a good example how "Leading scientists" can trump the "fringe scientists" That the well known and accepted Science is not to be questioned. It is a great allegory of what is going on now in Science research.

I understand the point you are making, but it doesn't reflect what happens in the real world and doesn't take into account peer review. I'm not saying that scientists or historians cannot be mistaken or dogmatic (Egyptology in particular is subject to lots of political bickering) but ultimately new evidence and empirical analysis will win out regardless of whether or not it upsets the status quo.

Sticking with Egyptology, 19th century scholars were woefully biased and corrupted by their cultural prejudices. Much of their accepted wisdom has been overturned and rejected in the face of new evidence and higher standards of peer review. As more evidence comes to light our understanding of ancient Egypt will have to be revised and as such modern scholars appreciate that they would be foolish to assume that current interpretations are infallible.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  CMcMillan on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:31 pm

Peer Review:

http://michaelnielsen.org/blog/three-myths-about-scientific-peer-review/

Many times I’ve had non-scientists mention to me that a paper has been “peer-reviewed!”, as though that somehow establishes that it is correct, or high quality. I’ve encountered this, for example, in some very good journalists, and it’s a concern, for peer review is only a small part of a much more complex and much more reliable system by which we determine what scientific discoveries are worth taking further, and what should be discarded.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:47 pm

I agree with many of the points made in that article and I certainly don't mean to imply that peer review is the be all and end all when it comes to ensuring the legitimacy of conclusions drawn by scientists or hstorians.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  CMcMillan on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:49 pm

So then when is it good science?
How does one tell if Science is GOOD?
Is it good and accurate if It is widely accepted or is it something else?

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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:18 pm

I think the article you linked to covered these questions very well and drew some solid conclusions. The author did not state that peer review is worthless and that there is no means of reaching a consensus with regard to whether or not scientific conclusions are accurate.

As Nielson says, peer review is only part of the scientific method and good evidence based conclusions usually prevail even when the peer review process is on occasion flawed or biased.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Kel on Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:06 am

Thank you all for a most enjoyable and informative read with my coffee this morning. I did not know the pyramid stones were faced with limestone. They were long on my bucket list to see until talking with others that made the trip ~ so much for my mental picture of them standing alone in the vast sand, far out in the Sahara. They also were constantly harassed by locals that purposely stood in front of their cameras until paid to move aside. Bummer. Mad
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:54 am

Not only were the pyramids cased in smooth polished limestone, but they were placed with such precision that in places you cannot pass a sheet of paper between the joins.

Unfortunately much of the casing was removed and used constructing modern Cairo, although some of it remains at the peak and base of hte great pyramid.

By contrast the inner (usually unseen) blocks seem to be very roughly hewn and packed with rubble to compensate for their imperfections. It's saves labour and time if you only use your best stone for the outer construction and casing.........from what I've seen some builders still apply this philosophy today Wink
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Tzieth on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:58 pm

Unless they were built not by Aliens or slaves but ROBOTS!!!! lol Honestly I think it's one of those things that is best left unknown... Adds that atmosphere of mystery.

The real brain stumper is that Inca (Or pre-Inca) City up in the mountains of South America. The last theory I saw on that was that the rock was poured in place, not chiseled.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:15 pm

Tzieth wrote:Honestly I think it's one of those things that is best left unknown... Adds that atmosphere of mystery.

There's plenty we don't know about the construction, so lots of mysteries yet to be solved.

Not unlike the hypothesis that Puma Punku* was created by casting molten stone, there are some who believe that the limestone casing on the Giza pyramids was in fact a form of concrete that was cast in place. It's pure speculation at the moment, but still more credible than levitation or 'aliens did it'.

* I assume that's the city you are talking about.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Tzieth on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:27 am

Woodwose wrote:
Tzieth wrote:Honestly I think it's one of those things that is best left unknown... Adds that atmosphere of mystery.

There's plenty we don't know about the construction, so lots of mysteries yet to be solved.

Not unlike the hypothesis that Puma Punku* was created by casting molten stone, there are some who believe that the limestone casing on the Giza pyramids was in fact a form of concrete that was cast in place. It's pure speculation at the moment, but still more credible than levitation or 'aliens did it'.

* I assume that's the city you are talking about.

Yes that is the city... I had no idea how to spell it and I forgot the exact modern country it was in, so I went generic lol. Was it Peru? or Chile? I remember it being one of those..
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Re: Technology lost

Post  CMcMillan on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:29 pm

Puma Punku is in Bolivia

http://mannaismayaadventure.com/tag/pumapunku/
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Woodwose on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Similar claims are made about Sacsayhuam (Peru) as well.
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Re: Technology lost

Post  Green911 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:38 pm

What about the guy who did the corals castle in Florida? That one has always fascinated me. Especially when he moved it.

elephant
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Re: Technology lost

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