Are we special?

Well, here are a few thoughts to ponder:

Here we have, if you are a believer, a monstrous creature that absolutely has all the traits to completely dominate an ecosystem and all that occupy it. The perfect combination of mind and matter, so to speak. 7-10 ft tall, 600-1000lbs of pure, raw physical prowess. Couple that with a mind that, if we admit it exists, must be on par with our own, but has adapted to a physical lifestyle, in terms of spacial awareness, dexterity, anticipation, strategy, and possibly analytical prowess as it relates to forest habitat that we can't begin to conceptualize as a civilized hominid. Everything about it screams, dominance, power and ability to overwhelm adversaries!

Yet throughout history very few, if any humans have been killed, or even hurt by this giant of the forest. The documentation for claimed physical encounters is suspect to say the least.

Why?



Avoidance behavior can only take one so far, at some point there has to be some cultural, religious, or traditional aspect as a foundation for the lack of predatory response to our occupying and infiltrating their domain. Understand we are completely powerless, and at their mercy in the wilderness. They live in groups and are ten steps ahead of us in their backyard. We DO NOT get over on them. It just doesn't happen. Ask any researcher worth their salt, and they will tell you. It's like playing chess with a GrandMaster, in your first attempt at the game. These gadgets, and high tech toys we have may give us glimpses, and pull back the curtain in some ways, but as far as us ever having the advantage out there, it's just not going to happen. We are talking millenia of dominance of their domain. We are simply outmatched.

I truly believe there is some sort of morality, some sort of code of ethics, shared or passed down by Sasquatch, that crosses geographical space, generational difference, and physical survival motivations. They have a shared paradigm of non violence towards humans. It's the only rational explanation, for the lack of predatory behavior, if one accepts that there is the existence of a significant breeding population of Sasquatches and their subspecies in the America's and elsewhere on this spinning rock we call Earth.

They do not fear us. They respect us, for one reason or another. They may even revere us. Whatever their motivation is, although they could harm, kill, or maim us at their whimsy; They do NOT. Whether it's an evolutionary aspect taught by parent to offspring, or a moralistic tradition passed group to group across the entire world?????, it's a significant statistical anomaly that cannot be explained by simple instinctual behavior, or survival mechanism. They are too dominant in the wilderness(their backyard), and too numerous, if you accept there is a breeding population, for us to not be taken advantage of by a hominid of their intelligence, agility, and physical prowess more than we are.

Thoughts? Feedback?

NobleSavage

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Nobel,

I find several things intresting.
I curious why they are intrested in trying to get in homes in and around their Territory.
Example your own story of how they were bothering you in the woods in your tent. Till you spoke up and told them that you mean no harm and that you respect them. Then they left you alone. Do they feel threatened by us for just being out and about in their forests?

Why do they throw rocks on people just hiking, why do they use scare tactics.

I guess this goes to the logic that their may be different versions of the creature. Dogmen. Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, skunkape, etc...
The question do they all work togther or they just like humans where some people are just bad.

CMcMillan wrote:Nobel,

I find several things intresting.
I curious why they are intrested in trying to get in homes in and around their Territory.
Example your own story of how they were bothering you in the woods in your tent. Till you spoke up and told them that you mean no harm and that you respect them. Then they left you alone. Do they feel threatened by us for just being out and about in their forests?

Why do they throw rocks on people just hiking, why do they use scare tactics.

I guess this goes to the logic that their may be different versions of the creature. Dogmen. Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, skunkape, etc...
The question do they all work togther or they just like humans where some people are just bad.

why no signs of civilisation or communities?

why no signs of fire or tool use?

the lone dumb ape is a more credible story, but then if that were true we would have found it by now.

lots of questions, no answers.

I think they are just as curious about us, as we are them. Although they could rip any door off of any cabin with ease, they do not. Although they could throw 10 lbs. basketball sized chunks of granite, they throw small pebbles, or smaller rocks, and the vast majority of throwing incidents describe rocks landing around or near them, not at them.

To us, these stories and incidents appear aggressive. Think how non-aggressive such events, window peeking, slapping the sides of buildings, and rock throwing not at, but around those of interest, would seem from their perspective. After all, these are wild creatures, that are capable of far more aggressive scenarios. I believe there are incidents of aggression, but there seems to be a line that's never or very rarely crossed. They could so easily injure, maim, or kill us, without discovery, but it just doesn't happen.

Now as a believer, one must ask him/herself why is that?

I hike solo often, in rugged wilderness. I'm undoubtedly vulnerable, and have had many wildlife encounters that would amaze some who have never left their yard, or house. I enjoy that, the danger aspect, the reconnection with the wild. I believe when one is alone, wild animals feel much more comfortable, especially when we are not carrying long guns(shotguns, rifles), or things that appear like guns, (walking/hiking sticks).

I think Sasquatches respect that although different from them, their observances of us, and our use of technology elicit some sort of reverence or respect.

As far as group think in Sas's. I think their share information between family groups, and they culturally pass along information, be it about us, or other learned behaviors. I think they are progressive, and highly intelligent hominids, just not intelligent in the way most of us arrogant humans would define intelligence. They do not gather in complex social groups, as we do, so although information is passed along, it's probably more incremental, and because they are so well adapted, and easily thrive in their environment, the need for cooperative behaviors is diminished, so they are much more family based, or private as we might say.

David Paulides is writing a book that states he things BF or another species of BF is taking people up in the northwests. He calls it the nortwest 411.
But it is focused on the weaker smaller children. Who knows what happening out there?

I'm anxious to read that, but Paulides introduction to the BF world came late, and I believe was roundly influenced by Native American lore, and superstition.

I'm 1/16th Apache, and have a long term love affair with N.A. culture, and history, but I think Paulides connects some dots that just aren't there a lot of times. His research and commentary often reflect a sense of fear, and discomfort for something he's never personally encountered. He seems to operate, and base opinion on fear of Sasquatch.

So i would wonder,
With Justin having Shot not 1 but 2 of them would you think that the Bigfoots in that area will be more agressive to humans now?

I think that's a great question, and will be very interesting to observe in the near future. From my understanding, Justin has been back to that very spot, alone, and with others, and no aggression resulted.

At least no aggression has been reported yet. My gut feeling is that, had there been in other Sasquatches present, or in near proximity Mr. Smeja, would have faced some serious music.

One can't be sure, and like I said respect must be given to these beings, if it's expected back.

What are your thoughts CM on the lack of missing or dead hikers, campers, atv enthusiasts, fishermen, hunters, etc that enter their sanctuaries by the millions annually? Mountain Lions, and Wolf populations, although decimated in the 1800s, still accounted for the deaths of these types, despite their lack of numbers in existence. I would rate Sasquatches as the premiere predators in the wilderness, second to none in intelligence, and physical prowess. If a breeding population exists, and as a solo backpacker myself, why have they not carried me off, or torn me to pieces for supper in the chance encounters I've experienced?

Much theory in this field is based on fear, and lack of personal initiative to actually interact with them. I'm no tough guy, and I'm scared shitless of carjackers, spiders, and sleepy truckdrivers. I'm becoming less afraid of putting myself in natural environments alone, I guess out of faith to some degree that I will be okay. With all the people banging the brush to find them now, I think we'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they are for whatever reason non-violent towards us specifically. Far less violent that myself, if someone charged into my living room shooting off fireworks, and banging on the furniture with baseball bats! LOL

GT3Paul wrote:David Paulides is writing a book that states he things BF or another species of BF is taking people up in the northwests. He calls it the nortwest 411.
But it is focused on the weaker smaller children. Who knows what happening out there?

This is an interesting point to say the least. I ran across the Missing 411 by Paulides. The content of the book is based on true facts- surrounding disappearance of people in National Parks and forest lands under very strange and unusually circumstances, done by Dave himself through hours and hours of research. Not only the northwest but throughout the country and possible the world. People, especially children from the accounts i listened to by Paulides, himself described as a bear or wolf-man taking them and “cuddling” with them. Other cases the people are never found or a few bones found miles away from where they were last scene.

Paulides from what i’ve gathered thus far, doesn’t out right say its a bigfoot, but you can put the pieces together. This book may need a new thread for discussion. but does take away the idea they are *not* all gentle giants.

I have often wondered about this theory as well. It could be a similar scenario as is presented when asked why the genus homo survived and neanderthalis did not. They were physically superior, and highly intelligent with a cranial cavity larger than our own. The answer to this is tools. Mankind's superior use of tools and problem solving capabilities helped them survive/thrive through changing climates and environments. BF very likely is highly intelligent, but the intelligence is measured in a different way. As for their non-aggression I believe this is an attribute that you already addressed. They have a respect/fear man. If man (homo sapien) drove relic hominids to or near extinction it would have become a survival trait to avoid homo sapiens. Sapiens use fire/tools, weapons, large communities, all of which could overcome even the most physically adept being. SWP once spoke of a sort of religion of hiding that BF may have evolved. I don't believe he meant religion as in "spirituality" but rather a code or ethic of avoidance. This would be taught and passed down and refined through generations. BF knows that if they harm one human, likely more will come. As for the Smeja incident I believe any BF's in the area will become even more leary of humans possibly even leave the region.

BurdenOfProof wrote:

CMcMillan wrote:Nobel,

I find several things intresting.
I curious why they are intrested in trying to get in homes in and around their Territory.
Example your own story of how they were bothering you in the woods in your tent. Till you spoke up and told them that you mean no harm and that you respect them. Then they left you alone. Do they feel threatened by us for just being out and about in their forests?

Why do they throw rocks on people just hiking, why do they use scare tactics.

I guess this goes to the logic that their may be different versions of the creature. Dogmen. Jersey Devil, Bigfoot, skunkape, etc...
The question do they all work togther or they just like humans where some people are just bad.

why no signs of civilisation or communities?

why no signs of fire or tool use?

the lone dumb ape is a more credible story, but then if that were true we would have found it by now.

lots of questions, no answers.

There are reports of fire use and tool use if you go with the marked Hominid reports. But say you came across a sasquatch fire, how would you know it was a sasquatch that made it?

As for Communities, most researchers do think the classic Sasquatch does have small tight-nit communities. As for Civilization? Why would they need one? There is no fossil record of even Neanderthals having a civilization though now they say they had bigger brains than early Sapiens did. Think about it. The reason we have communities is because we are frail and weak little beings. We get sick easily and we could not survive in the places that they do if we were not waring clothes or building houses. I think most of our technology sprang from necessity and for the longest time it just sat there at the same level for thousands of years. Technology for comfort and entertainment is a recent event.

On the same coin, how many Orca attacks on humans are there? Here is an animal that is the true apex predator over all and our brain litterly is pea sized compared to it's. Yet in recorded history there have only been several attacks by wild Orca's on humans and no fatalities.(There are fatalities caused by captive Orcas pissed off at their trainers.) And the attacks were mostly in defense of their calves or retaliation on humans for failed attempts to hunt them. And it has nothing to do with diet, they have been known to eat moose that were swimming between islands. Yet they do not touch humans.

We Homo-sapiens-sapiens are frail,weak, violent little bastards. We are the little nerds that were thrown into lockers and then grew up to become serial killers. There is evidence that we all existed at the same time and the same place with the other Hominids in the fossil record. (which is the only place that fossils could be easily made.) We most likely started inventing weapons at this time to compete for food. Knowing us, we probably then started attacking the other Hominids and drove them out of the plains and into the jungles and forests and all the other places we did not find suitable to live with our low-tech frail little bodies. And then when they left we started attacking each other and we stayed in these same pristine lowland areas. We started building cities and civilizations and Kingdoms for protection against other Homo-Sapiens-Sapiens.

This is exactly why I think the other hominids are still around. We stayed in our civilization zones and did not bother to even try to colonize the wilderness areas until recently. When we slowly expanded our boarders into the forests and jungles and swamps, they slowly kept moving deeper into them. (which would explain why they disappeared from the fossil record. Forest environments make fossilization impossible)

We depend on farming and ranching where they do not. We must cook our food to kill bacteria where they do not.

So it may even be possible that they are actually smarter than us but did not expand on technology simply because they did not need to.

This puts into words almost exactly my theory of how we developed separately, and much differently than Sasquatch. I don't hate my own species, but our arrogance and inability to live in harmony with both ourselves and our artificial environments does nauseate me at times.

I guess I'm envious of Sasquatch sometimes because they seem to exist in harmony and embrace nature. Their design seems superior to ours' in that regard.

I also feel that due to our similarities in appearance and bipedal locomotion, they are very curious about us, and for reasons we may never know, they do not harm us, despite our disrespect for their territories, violations of the water sources, competition for the food sources, and some of us outright hunting them, and pursuing them with violent and invasive technologies.

You would think, at some point, just from a territorial perspective or even the Smeja incident, or similar situations where they were fired upon; Sasquatches would have used their immense physical advantages, and home-field advantage to dispatch us. Especially those that are alone, in their territories, that would pose little threat to them through violence or discovery. One man with a rifle would have very little chance against a Squatch ambush. There is no doubt they could do a lot more harm to us, and get away with it, than is done. They must also share this no-kill philosophy species wide, either through language, tradition, or as a survival tenet, because otherwise there would be alot more missing hikers, hunters, fishermen, etc. Statistically it is a certainty, that if there is a breeding population of Sasquatch in N. America for example, there is some instinctual, or learned behavior, or shared knowledge/tradition, across the entire geographic domain of the species, to not kill, maim, or do harm to us. It makes sense, and I find it far more evolved in a sense, that what we might guilty of if roles were reversed.

Excellent post Tzeith! I'm glad you are here in the forum.

Errm but I think it should be noted that there are a few cases of people being attacked and killed and children and women abducted if you count the Native American stories. Don't forget the guy in Teddy Roosevelt's story that was decapitated by a bigfoot-like creature when he attempted to hunt it. And then there were those miners back in the 20's in ape canyon who claimed they were attacked by ape-men all night long after they supposedly shot one.

I like your theory Tzeith. It is very plausible. I find it hard to understand how no other hominid could survive/evolve except us. If chimpanzees can survive why not a neanderthal or homo erectus? They are physically and mentally superior to lesser primates. Just doesn't make sense that every species of hominid is extinct except us. This is not the basis for my claim of BF, but it is a piece of the puzzle.

Tzeith,

I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but those two stories you referenced are highly suspect to say the least. Fred Beck who told the story of Ape Canyon was a very questionable character, and many proponents even have found many inconsistencies, and holes in his story. I find that account very difficult to believe myself.

The Teddy Roosevelt beheading story, I'll have to call hoax on that one. It was yarn told around the campfire for years.

The truth is there are really no properly vetted stories of Sasquatch attacks on record.

I give Paulides credit for his book Lost 411, but some of the connections he tries to make to Squatch I think stem from his own fear of them. Many people come at this topic from a fearful perspective.

The account I do find probable was Albert Ostman's account, and he was kidnapped and hauled off in his sleeping bag, so that could point to some aggression there, but I think it was for interbreeding intent.

Call me out there, but I buy his story.

I love the Ostman story. When I hear the story...I am there! The burning pain of his legs in the bottom of the sleeping bag, etc...He is either telling the truth or one fantastic storyteller who was smart enough to include just the right kind of information that a fabricated story would lack. Just my humble opinion...

The narrative and details, have me leaning towards him being truthful. It would be very difficult to make up some of the specifics.

Everything about it screams, dominance, power and ability to overwhelm adversaries!

I think of four possibilities.

1) It avoids us out of fear and self-preservation generally speaking and it has no reason for violence.

2) It respects us in a elder sibling kind of way and would never dream of injuring someone or

3) It feels sorry for us - us poor misguided hairless primitives who cannot survive in a natural environment with out unnatural help and pities us, so it won't hurt us or

4) It looks at us with distain generally (we HAVE screwed up our world pretty well and used our intelligence in destructive ways).

Or all four in different situations and individuals.

And I do think it will defend itself if it is forced to. Let's not give it reasons to!

I think if we tie it into the Hairy Man of Native american lore, that when we were created they learned of coyote's trick and in-turn helped create us.
Then when they came to see us We as humans were afraid of them.

Could they be waiting for a right time to show them selves to us?

Its strange some stories act as if they are almost creatures like bears. Defending their territory throwing rocks and stuff.
Then other times they communicate with humans. Tell us to not be afraid.

This is where I can almost see that their are the Dogman and the Sasquatches out in the woods.
We mix the 2 of them up.
Sasquatch is the one who wishes us to not be afraid while the Dogman is more feral.

CMcMillan wrote:I think if we tie it into the Hairy Man of Native american lore, that when we were created they learned of coyote's trick and in-turn helped create us.
Then when they came to see us We as humans were afraid of them.

Could they be waiting for a right time to show them selves to us?

Its strange some stories act as if they are almost creatures like bears. Defending their territory throwing rocks and stuff.
Then other times they communicate with humans. Tell us to not be afraid.

This is where I can almost see that their are the Dogman and the Sasquatches out in the woods.
We mix the 2 of them up.
Sasquatch is the one who wishes us to not be afraid while the Dogman is more feral.

I absolutely agree with your comment about the Dogman being more aggressive than most reports of BF encounters. However, even before reading the 411 books by David Paulides I had heard stories of people just disappearing in the woods never to be seen or heard from again. There seem to be many people who have disappeared under sudden strange circumstances, or just plain flat out disappeared and were never seen again, and no signs were ever found regarding how or why they disappeared.

When I read Paulides' books I realized that this species may be a lot more aggressive sometimes than I had ever suspected. I sincerely hope that The Ketchum Report will have some commentary stating that these are wild animals, and should be left alone.

Also, as in all species, there are always some animals that are more aggressive and dangerous than most of the others in the species. Have you read or watched the movie about the lions in Africa who killed about 300+ people? They were called The Ghost and The Darkness in the movie made about the killings they did. I hope I have the movie title correctly, I will go check to be sure that is the correct title.

Anyway, my point is that there are in any species some who are more aggressive and violent than most of the others in it's species, I believe that the Sasquatch species can have more feral and aggressive creatures than most of the rest of the species, animals who have had dangerous encounters with humans, perhaps shot at, or had a child killed by humans.

There are just way too many unexplained disappearances of hikers and campers for something unusual besides weather and just bad luck being involved in the cases.

Plus, this Dogman creature really alarms me, and I think that this species is far more aggressive than the BF species normally is. I live in Kentucky, and a family group of 5 were slaughtered at the Land Between the Lakes camping grounds while sleeping their *metal* camping trailer. The youngest child was found hanging on a low tree branch where the creature had placed it to return to finish eating it later.